A Holiday Treat: Extended Interview with Shannon Messenger 🎁
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Season 2: Episode 49 Description
Ten News Gets Extra: 🎁 A holiday treat for all of our Ten'ers!🎙️ If you love reading, we’ve got a present just for you! 📚 The Ten News show creator, Tracy Leeds Kaplan and her daughter Naomi sit down with best-selling author, Shannon Messenger, to discuss her writing, making mallow melts, and when we can expect book 9! 👀
Sources:
7 Surprising Reading Facts That Prove It All Adds Up (weareteachers.com)
Charlotte’s Web | Summary, Characters, & Facts | Britannica
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TRANSCRIPT:
Bethany Van Delft 0:02
Ho, ho, ho, Merry Christmas. If you love reading, we've got just the present for you. I'm Bethany Van Delft. It's Saturday, December 25th. And this is no ordinary episode of the Ten News. This is the Ten News Gets Extra.
Various Voices 0:20
10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
Bethany Van Delft 0:29
If you're a fan of Shannon Messenger's Keeper of the Lost City series, then you'll be excited about this extended interview. Executive producer Tracy Leeds Kaplan and her daughter Naomi sat down with the best-selling author Shannon Messenger to discuss her writing, making mallow melts, and when we can all expect a book nine.
Tracy Kaplan 0:54
Hi, Shannon, it's so great to have you with us here today on the Ten News. We are big fans, I will say that we are even super fans, and we're really excited to talk to you.
Shannon Messenger 1:04
Well, I'm so excited to be here. This is so much fun, especially since we don't get to go out in person as much. It's so nice to get to meet with readers and fans and have a nice morning together. And I'm
Tracy Kaplan 1:15
Joined today by my daughter, Naomi Kaplan, who's going to help me out with some of our questions and questions that were sent in from our Ten'ers, we have a good audience that that loves your work. And I think where we want to start off is hearing from you. How did you come up with the world for Keeper of the Lost Cities? What inspired you to create this epic adventure?
Shannon Messenger 1:36
It really came from all different places, it was not one of those instances of just you know, I sort of woke up and went I know this entire story in this entire world it kind of happened very gradually, I knew that I wanted to write about elves. And I had from you know, starting a short story that was actually with Fitzes character, right? I knew that. Yeah, I have a short story I had created Fitz for a different book that I was working on and created the elves just very loosely for a different book that I was working on. And I got stuck. And so I was kind of just trying to, you know, unstuck that story by writing from one of the side characters pov's, and out came Sophie into that story. I don't really know why she just sort of popped in somehow I decided that that story was going to be about Fitz, meeting a girl and realizing that she was like him and she was an elf and him having to tell her that and in proof that maybe short stories aren't always my best form. You know, the dramatic ending of that story was just him basically saying, hey, so you're an elf, not the greatest ending, I mean, I know I'm known for my cliffhangers. But I feel like that's an even worse cliffhanger than what I do in the series. It just, wasn't satisfying at all and it but it got me to realize that that's what the story was I just kept thinking about what is going to happen to this girl now that she knows she's enough? What does she have to leave? Does she have to go live in the Lost Cities? And why was she hidden away? And that's when I realized there's a story there. And I need to kind of figure those questions out. And that was when I started really building the world. So I had to step back. And I really spent a lot of time thinking okay, so this is a world that's built by these creatures. This isn't a world built by Shannon, this isn't Shannon-topia, this is the last cities. This is a world inhabited by elves. And so what world would they build? And I started to get nervous again because I was still finding that there were problems. There were things that were unfair, there were things that it was just like, well, that would be kind of a terrible thing to have to live with. And, and there were a lot of really cool things too. And I kept thinking, I need to try to take these bad things out. And then I realized no, but that's why there's a story. That's why we need Sophie. That's why Sophie was hidden away. That's why there's the Black Swan. That's why there are these rebellions going on because the world isn't perfect. And I needed to just embrace the fact that the world that the elves would build is flawed. And the end that that's this, you know, the story and the challenge that Sophie is up against. And so really, once I kind of embraced that and stopped fighting it, then the story and the world and everything just all started coming together. And I realized that Yeah, I mean if the world was perfect, we wouldn't need a story, it would just be Sophie wakes up and everybody does wonderful things and is happy. And that's that and it would be you know, great for them, but pretty boring for readers.
Tracy Kaplan 4:27
Can you tell us how do you put your characters together?
Shannon Messenger 4:31
You know, that is the one part of my writing process that is kind of a mystery even to me, which is because it's the question I get asked most often because my readers always want to know, how did you come up with these characters and they, they kind of formed themselves, they really do. My brain has a very vivid imagination. And so I tend to start to see the character kind of fully formed. And a lot of times the characters, I'll start out with kind of a goal I'll be like, okay, so So You'll need a friend. And I'll just kind of start thinking about different people that could be friends with Sophie. And sometimes I'll get characters that I'm just like, No, I can't see them getting along. And sometimes that means they end up becoming sort of an antagonist to Sophie, or sometimes it's like, now we'll save that character for another book. But a lot of times, they really just come very fully shaped. The one question that I do always ask a character before I start writing them is I asked, What is this character hiding from me? Because I feel like we all have secrets. And once I know that character's secrets, I kind of get them, I kind of own them in a way. And it doesn't always mean bad secrets. I mean, the secrets can be a crush, or they can be you know, a secret dream that they want to have that they haven't shared. Or it can be things that they're afraid of, or things that they're embarrassed of, or anything like that. Usually, it's a mix. But I feel like once I know those things, that really tells me everything that I need to know about the character. And the rest is just kind of discovery. As I write, I try to really think of them as real people. And I try to really, when I'm writing the scenes, sit down and think, okay, so given what I know about this character, and given what I know about the situation that they're in, what would they do? It makes my life as an author a lot harder, because sometimes the answer to that question is, like, well, but that doesn't go along with what I need them to do. So what am I going to do now, you know, but it means that I have to follow some curveballs. But I think that ends up making the story feel more authentic because I really am kind of letting the characters run the show. And I know that my mom was always like, you know, they're not real, right? And I'm like, I know, but I have to treat them. Like they're real in order to write them in a way that makes them feel real on the page. And so, yes, they're not real, but they're also real at the same time.
Tracy Kaplan 6:53
And you also have a lot of villains. Yes. Are they more fun to write? Are you drawn to this dark side?
Shannon Messenger 7:00
No, the villains are really hard for me to write. I definitely, see their value. And I feel like the best villains are always the ones that if you sat with them long enough, they might be able to convince you that they're right.
Tracy Kaplan 7:12
We are going to jump to some of the tenors. Questions from our tenors.
Hazel 7:16
This is a question from Hazel. Hi, how did you get the idea for the characters’ names?
Shannon Messenger 7:22
I for a person who only recently had a child I own an abundance of baby name books. And I that was one thing that is kind of a character-building exercise. For me, I do like the names to have a meaning that says something to me about the characters. Some it's very on the nose like Keith means handsome. So you know that that name is very spot on. Some are a little bit more an impression of a character or like Sophie, it means wisdom. And I feel like that's something that Sophie brings to the law cities that she has this very unique worldview because she was raised with humans always feeling like an outsider, but was still believed that she was one of them. And now she knows where she is. And she sees things differently because of the way she was raised. And I feel like she gives wisdom to the Lost Cities that it needs very much. And so it's a lot of just reading baby name websites, baby name books, and looking at different meanings of names and also trying to find names that both feel approachable. But also maybe don't feel like there's going to be 10 kids in your class that is all going to have that same name because they are supposed to be a different species.
Tracy Kaplan 8:33
I like Dex, Dex is yes. I think that's my favorite name.
Shannon Messenger 8:41
Yeah, I had a lot of fun with that. And I especially when I realized that Dex rhymed with a lot of things. And so then I could have the triplets be Rex, Dex, and Lex. I was just like, oh, this is fun.
Hazel 8:52
Were there any alternate names that you considered for Sophie?
Shannon Messenger 8:56
I did. I feel like I've even said this. So it's probably online somewhere. Sophie's original name was actually Agnes McWeeny.
Tracy Kaplan 9:04
I think, Wow. I think I saw it somewhere.
Shannon Messenger 9:06
That was it. Because again, it was she was in a short story. And she was just supposed to be this kind of like, Uber nerdy character that Fitz, looks at and realizes Well, the reason she's so much smarter, and she's kind of different and kind of holds away and seems like this uber-nerd is because she's actually an elf and so Agnes McWeeny was her original name.
Nia 9:27
This question is from Nia, how did you write Tam so perfectly?
Shannon Messenger 9:32
Oh, well, thank you. Um, you know, again, it just really comes down to putting thought into what I know about him, you know, and I knew a lot about his backstory, you know, everything all the conflict with his parents all of his time with Lynn on their own their time in Exillium. You know, what it's like to be a shade in a world that kind of values light above everything else and your ability controls darkness, you know, just really kind of putting thought into All of those things and you know, he kind of came together as this slightly surly but also very funny and, you know, super emo kind of guy who speaks his mind. And you know, but it's also kind of quiet. And you know, he's, he's a study in contrasts. And so a lot of times I have to kind of go back through his scenes and make sure that I'm not letting him go too extreme either way, because then he stops feeling like himself, and kind of find that happy balance with him. But yeah, it really is just knowing him and and thinking about everything that made him who he is now and then trying to decide what that means he would say and do based on those things.
Tracy Kaplan 10:41
He's a very cool character. Yeah. And then Nia had a follow-up question about his sister.
Nia 10:45
Does Lin ever get a significant partner?
Shannon Messenger 10:48
Well, sadly, I'm not allowed to give spoilers, I would get in very big trouble.
Tracy Kaplan 10:53
We tried, Ten'ers, we tried.
Shannon Messenger 10:55
I can't answer that question without getting myself in a tremendous amount of trouble. So all I can say is I guess we'll find out as the story unfolds, I will also say, I never plan relationship stuff, I anything, even the Sophie stuff, I let that unfold by asking myself what the characters would do because I feel like I control the plot as far as like, what the villains are going to do, how many times they're almost going to die. All of that. That's all me throwing stuff at them, but then how they feel about it. That's on the characters. And so something like a relationship. That's all to do with feelings. And so again, that's all something that I just kind of let unfold.
Tracy Kaplan 11:35
And we're going to come back to one of the villains so spoiler alert for Ten News listeners. This question came from Kira.
Kira 11:45
Why did you make Keefe's mom the bad guy in the story instead of other characters?
Shannon Messenger 11:51
Um, I mean, again, it kind of came down to I knew that about Keefe's mom. And I knew that about his whole family. And I think that was one of the reasons why, because Keefe was actually one of the later additions to the story. I think I came up with him around draft 11. For those who don't know, the published version of Keepers draft 20 took me a long time to figure out this story. But Keefe didn't exist until draft 11. And I knew there was a hole I knew that Fitz needed a friend, I just kind of was hoping that as the story went along, I would figure that out. And I did. And along came Keefe. And, you know, as I said, Sometimes I come up with characters, and I realized they're not quite right. As soon as I came up with Keefe, I knew he was the right fit. And a lot of the reason why I knew that was that I could tell he had this very dark home life, you know, and that he had. And that was what fascinated me, you know it, he had one parent, that seems like the villain, neither parent is great. But one parent certainly seemed worse than the other and certainly seemed like this is who the villain is going to be. And then that's not the case. And it's the other parent. And I was just like, I can't wait to write that moment. This is a definite character that needs to be in the series. And so it's something that I knew all along. And it was something that made him feel like yes, this character fits in the story because of this dynamic that has kind of come up within his family. And so I knew that it was going to be very tough for Keefe. And I'm like, Sorry, dude, you're gonna have a rough road ahead. But you get to be part of the story. So there's that yay, maybe? I don't know.
Tracy Kaplan 13:31
So this came in from quite a few Ten'ers. So looking for an update on what you can share for the next book. And I know, I read about your background and being in Screenwriting. So is there a movie on the horizon?
Shannon Messenger 13:46
Ah, okay. So book nine, because of the whole, you know, I had a baby. Book nine has been a little delayed, I actually found out I was pregnant. The day I finished unlocked, I remember being like, it's fine. I've got nine months, I'll totally be able to write those entire nine months, and book nine will totally be on schedule. And then I spent about five and a half months just trying to get through the day without vomiting and realized that no, this is book nine is going to be delayed. So book nine is coming out in November of next year, instead of this, it should have been that we were you know, days away from the launch at this point. But, you know, I get to have my wonderful son and so that makes it worth it. But I and I'm so grateful that my readers have been so understanding of the fact that writing while pregnant and then writing with a newborn, it turned out to not be as possible as I had hoped. So that's coming up in November and we should be able to start sharing things like title and cover and things like that a little bit earlier than we normally do. I think usually those things drop around like April or May But because we have an extended timeline, I'll hopefully be able to share those a little bit earlier. It all kind of depends on my publisher. They're the ones who Greenlight when those things are allowed to be revealed. So stay tuned to my social media for anything else on that front. But it does have a title. And I actually have seen the cover, and it's amazing and everyone is going to go nuts. There's lots of excitement ahead. And I can also say that book nine is not the end, it has been announced that there will be a book 10, And book 10 is going to be the end. So right now, book 10 is slated to come out the following November, so November of 2023. Hopefully, I'm able to stick to that deadline schedule. And so yeah, stay tuned on that as far as the movie Yes, the movie has been optioned by Disney. And it is with Ben Affleck at attached to Direct. And to co-write the screenplay with another writer with who I've gotten to speak with both of them. And they are great about the fact that they want me to be involved but also are not expecting me to be the one to write the screenplay, which was exactly what I wanted. I know a lot of people thought, Oh, you came from film school. So you must want to write your own screenplay. But no, I've taken enough adapting classes to know things have to change in order to make it work as a film. And I can't be objective enough to know how to make those changes, because I'm like, No, everything is exactly the way it needs to be. And so what the ideal is, is that you know, you want to work with somebody who will come to you and say, I'm thinking about making this change. What do you think about it? And, you know, I really in the phone calls that I've had with them, they talked a lot about how they approach adaption like it is trying to capture the essence of something, it's not about changing. It's about trying to capture and the kind of, you know, questions that they had, you could really tell that they actually are trying to figure out why what purpose the scene was serving. And so if a scene has to change, like make sure that that purpose, both in the first book, and then in the overall arc of the series, is authentic, and is true. And it feels like a really good team. I mean, obviously, movies take a long time. So we are, you know, nowhere near any sort of casting or anything like that. And it's all still up in the air as far as whether or not it will actually fully happen. But I held out for a very long time on selling the movie rights, we had a lot of interest over the years, and it just never quite felt like the right combination had come together. And this time it did. And so I'm hopeful that there will be you know, exciting news on that front to come. And I'm very, very hopeful that if that exciting news happens, and we actually do get a movie that it will be a good movie because as I'm sure everyone knows, there have been many books to film, things that have not gone so well. So you know, all you can do is hope for the best and hope that you have a team but we have a team that is very passionate about the books, they are big fans of the books, and they are committed to doing their best to doing the books justice, and you really can't ask for more than that as an author. So stay tuned for more on that as I get the news. It's one of those things I'm always saying on social media, the author is the last No, it really is true. So you know there are things going on behind the scenes that I have not been informed of, I'm sure and eventually, I will get informed, and then I'll get permission to share, and then the news will finally break to you guys.
Tracy Kaplan 18:49
Okay, so we are heading into holiday time to curl up with a very big book. I will say that it cracks me up in the morning when I see Naomi heading out to school carrying like three of these with her. It's a good exercise, but it's time for us to talk about the food. Ah, how did you come up with the idea of the food and add the recipes into the books?
Shannon Messenger 19:16
Food is one of the few things of the world where it is kind of like my own wish fulfillment a little bit it was kind of like alright, I love food and I if I'm getting to create my own foods I want to create foods that I wish existed. There are a lot of foods that I get readers for like hey, are you ever gonna make a stark flower stew recipe or things like that and I'm like well but Stark flowers don't exist. So I'm not sure if I know how to make a stark flower stew and then some of their desserts. It's just you know my love of sweets and just kind of coming up like if I could make the most amazing you know, dessert what would it be? And I have a very strong sweet tooth so if you've made any of the recipes you've probably noticed that they have a decent amount of sugar in them they are definitely small bites.
Tracy Kaplan 20:01
Small bites for sure. That's how we made Mallowmelts. Naomi was in the big bite club. I was in the tiny bite club.
Shannon Messenger 20:10
Yeah, I mean, I have a huge sweet tooth. And even I can only have a few bites of mellow melt. But I and I, when I made the recipe, I was like, Is this too sweet? And I was just like, but it needs to be that really gooey, you know, sugary, kind of amazing balm of chocolate and butterscotch and all the different flavors. And so it's sweet, but it's good. So yeah, make a plan on it going a long way. If you're making a batch of the recipe, you'll have it for a while. Or maybe you'll be feeding a large group of kids. Yeah. And so some of it was as I was writing it, and especially because I was starting to get requests for recipes and things I thought, you know, I wonder if I can make these things. I mean, I am not a professional baker at all. I am an amateur Baker, I love to bake. But I have no formal training at all. And so there were a lot of fails. There was a lot of wow, that's completely inedible. This is why at the moment, there's no custard burst recipe because I have still yet to figure out a way of making anything that matches what's in my brain that is edible. I've had a lot of baking fails to try to make. So we'll see if I ever come up with anything, but yeah, there are some recipes on my website. And then when we were doing unlocked, I was just like, it's a perfect opportunity to put a few more things in. And my plan is to keep going with that and eventually have, you know, more lost cities-related recipes that I've come up with. It's just kind of that delicate balance of but Shannon you have books to write is always like, great idea. How's the writing going?
Tracy Kaplan 21:48
Maybe after nine and 10 exams, a cookbook with the artist illustrations after nine and 10.
Shannon Messenger 21:57
No, no priorities. So I occasionally I have like an I get plot stuck. And I need to do baking therapy to get through it. And so I might occasionally have recipes that pop up. But on the whole any sort of major, you know, new recipes released it'll, it'll probably be after the books are done. All right.
Tracy Kaplan 22:17
Well, this was great. Shannon, it was so wonderful to have you here today. And we look forward to news about book nine.
Shannon Messenger 22:25
Yeah, definitely stay tuned. My Instagram is usually the best place for all of that. And that tends to be where I post about things first. So if you use that platform, that is a great place to stay tuned. And I try not to clog it with too much other stuff. And you just kind of get the important things that you need to know. There'll be Iggy's vote coming up at some point where everyone gets to vote on Iggy's color and book nine and all of the fun stuff ahead. So lots of head. Great.
Bethany Van Delft 22:57
Thank you, Tracy, Naomi, and Shannon. Did you ever wonder how many words you read in a year? If you read for about 20 minutes each day, you'll read 1,800,000 words in a year. That's incredible. And if you manage to read 20 minutes a day, you'll be in the top 1% of achievers learning as many as 12,000 new words. That's a lot of words. Alright, it's time for...
Various Voices 23:26
What, what, what's the big idea? Trivia on the Ten. Today's question is a literary one. Everyone knows that Charlotte is the spider in Charlotte's Web. But, can you remember the name of the pig? Is it a) Orville b) Wilbur or c) babe?
Bethany Van Delft 23:48
Did you guess it? The answer is b) Wilbur. Charlotte the spider saves Wilbur the pig. And the book about their friendship by EB Wright has inspired films, video games, and even a stage play. Time's up. But before we go, here's a quick note for the grownups. Thanks for listening to the Ten News. Look out for our new episodes on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and extras on Saturdays. The Ten News is a co-production of Small But Mighty Media and Next Chapter Podcasts and is distributed by iHeartRadio. The Ten News creative team is preordering Keeper of the Lost Cities Unknown and includes Tracey Crooks, Pete Musto, Adam Barnard, Tessa Flannery, and Nathalie Alonso. Naomi Kaplan contributed to this episode. Our production director is Jeremiah Tittle and our executive producers are Donald Albright and show creator Tracy Leeds Kaplan. I'm Bethany Van Delft, and thanks for listening to the Ten News. You never really think about how hard it is to say a very jolly, ho, ho, ho. Do you know what I mean? Give it a try. Oh, it sounds like I'm yelling. Ho, ho, ho, is that a bark? What was that a bark? Santa. I appreciate you. Merry Christmas.
